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Same debate over and over... ppl don't read

#1 User is offline   steje Icon

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    Posted 12 December 2007 - 09:59 PM

    I think it was a good idea to open a forum area specifically about the false AV detection constantly plauging this project. But I'm a bit surprised you guys (mods, admins, and very active users) still seem to allow yourselves to get dragged into heavy handed conversations where you pontificate over and over on explanations you've already provided... and justifiably get aggravated at times when the ensuing 'debates' begin over the validity of your answers. This forum and the topics in it seem to have the potential to become just a collection of the same type of info ppl already ignore in the FAQ...

    My two cents... the FAQ is a damn mess. One of the most important opening statements in the FAQ:

    "First don't panic, none of the UBCD4Win downloads contain any type of viruses or spyware"

    ...is likely lost in all of the otherwise good information that may contribute to ppl thinking "holy hell, I'm not gonna read all this". I tend to be a pretty verbose SOB, and often find it beneficial in my emails to others to get the important info singled out first and let ppl choose (or not) to read whatever additional detail (that I tend to call techno-babble) that I'll attach in "supporting documents".

    I think if you guys collected a bit more of the valid descriptions you've posted across the various topics here and added them to the FAQ, but perhaps made them SEPERATE readables from the main FAQ entry, maybe you could be more successful with getting your point across in individual topic replies with simple one-liner redirects for ppl to read the FAQ... but make the actual FAQ read with ONLY the most important info... and break the rest out into separate stuff that won't possibly sidetrack ppl from the most important bit:

    THAT A LEGIT DOWNLOAD OF THE UBCD4WIN PROJECT IS IN FACT SAFE FROM VIRUS AND SPYWARE!

    This post has been edited by steje: 12 December 2007 - 10:01 PM

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    #2 User is offline   hilander999 Icon

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      Posted 12 December 2007 - 11:11 PM

      :worthy:
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      #3 User is offline   SteelTrepid Icon

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        Posted 14 December 2007 - 08:56 PM

        I agree that the FAQ page isn't great and does need work. It's just too bad that with work, family, and life......I don't always have time to keep it updated.

        The reason I added this area was to give people an area to report new "false positives" and I would hopefully have or find the time to update the site. The NOD32 bs episode we had this past summer was a big inspiration for this area also, since most AV companies only care about scaring their customers and not informing them of "the truth" and also their lack of support when I contacted them asking why certain things were being flagged.

        Like I said above, the FAQ page does need help and I honestly do not have the time to perfect it. If you have time, what are your suggestions?? Can you help?? Or are just complaining to make us look bad and/or expecting more and more work from us for free? I don't mean to sound like an ass and am not trying to make you look bad. I expect you understand since you have been a member of this forum for some time and have seen time and time again that people always ask for exact directions on something THEY want to do but feel they are better than we are and expect us to spend OUR time fixing their problems because evidently the thousands of hours of time we've spent on this project is nothing to them and the maybe 2 hours of their time understanding how to do something is too much because their time is more precious than ours.
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        #4 User is offline   steje Icon

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          Posted 15 December 2007 - 12:12 PM

          I would be more than happy to try and help... if you you'd like, I can take a stab at re-organizing the info there into what "I" think might make for more of an impact up front should someone be directed to it... but, in the end someone from your team will still need to take "time" to evaluate my suggestions to see if you think thy're worth anything and then actually update the webpage if you think they stand a chance at making any difference... no?

          Listen, I'm not going to go into a whole diatribe about how much great work I think you, the mods, and the devs do on this project... If I didn't have regard for the amount of time you all obviously spend to help the users here, I wouldn't have posted this topic in the first place. Regard for your efforts (or more specifically your apparent frustration around the time spent addressing this very 'issue') was exactly the POINT of the post... NOT some random thought on my part that manifested as a 'complaint' that I thought you guys are doing something 'wrong' or 'incorrectly'. I was identifying with the seemingly endless need to reiterate to users that post about this subject that the project is safe, etc etc, false detections, blah blah.

          Rdsok has seemingly adopted the approach of crafting a canned response that he copies into most of his latest replies to users on the subject... which is obvious acknowledgment (to me) that the FAQ alone isn't getting the point across. All I did was express the opinion that the sheer 'amount' of content in the FAQ might be stealing the thunder out of the most important message... that UBCD4Win was virus, spyware, and malware free. All the rest of the info there is great stuff, and obviously aimed at 'educating' the users as to the exact nature of the terms used to describe the tools in the project that are flagged as X, Y, Z types of 'malware'... but again, might be swallowing the most important part of the message...


          As far as:

          Quote

          are just complaining to make us look bad

          An absolutely absurd notion...

          Quote

          expecting more and more work from us for free

          I didn't ask for anything... period. And what I did suggest wouldn't in any way benefit ME in the slightest. I expect NOTHING from you, except maybe to hold off on the condemnation you've thrown my way for expressing an opinion that I thought you could help yourself out a bit by trying a different approach with users on this subject.

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          I don't mean to sound like an ass and am not trying to make you look bad

          Well, I don't think you fully succeeded - ;)- :surrender:- but that's not the end of world; I am regularly accused of being a bit of an ass by the wife, and we still find a way to make the marriage the best thing in the world for both of us ;-).

          A forum is for feedback... I've seen when ppl throw obvious 'criticism' your way, and feel bad for you and the team when users post requests (sometimes borderline DEMANDS) that seem to expect you to be slaves to their wants and needs. I did no such thing, just provided what I hoped would be some useful and constructive feedback... and so here's some more of it:

          - You just mentioned that you instituted this particular sub-forum in the hope of 'giving people an area to report new "false positives" and you would hopefully have or find the time to update the site'. Given the reality of your situation and available time, this seems to have been over-ambitious... particularly considering your response to ME for a simple suggestion of re-organizing info you already have on the FAQ...

          - The actual "intent" of this sub-forum as you've described it seems to be lost on some of the uers, and maybe even some of the mods. There have been a few posts where a user has stated that he's looked at the FAQ and not seen a particular file like Ipscan, or FloboFloppyRepair, or some other utility in the project "explained" in terms of AV detection... maybe thinking he's doing the right thing by posting a topic about it regardless of the info in the FAQ based on the very description of this forum:

          Please make posts providing as much information as possible when you have problems with your AntiVirus software blocking files in UBCD4Win


          Only to be greeted by the re-occurring 'read the FAQ'... 'deja-vu'... 'we hear the same thing over and over' type responses, which then degenerate into sometimes semi-hostile dialog. Maybe some ppl aren't sure then what they're supposed to be posting here?

          Anyhow... I think it would have been a FINE benefit to have been able to field reports here by users about how different security products flag different pieces of the project... but ESPECIALLY given the amount of time doing this would require, I think the idea is somewhat doomed to failure, and your time and effort is better spent making the issue as clear as you can... and a three page FAQ might otherwise swallow a clear message... An offer of help still stands, but somehow I think you may not be interested... more the pity.

          'woof
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          #5 User is offline   rdsok Icon

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            Posted 15 December 2007 - 03:20 PM

            Some points..

            The main point that I think everyone will agree on... A large number of users will never read the FAQ's before they post. So by repeatingly stating a user needs to read the instructions and/or FAQ's must always be done or we simply purpetuate the issue and users will never learn to do it.

            The next point is that some will read the FAQ but still think that it somehow doesn't apply to their situation since the detection they had was not listed there. We have listed the most common ones found, the riskware that some utils detect as possible threats but with false positives that isn't possible or at least not a viable option since that list would change day to day as new virus defintions are created or corrected.

            So not matter what is done or said there will be posts of this nature no matter if the FAQ is reworded or not.

            My "canned" response address's not an acknowledgement of any lack of the FAQ getting the point across as you implied... it simply summerizes many of the points the FAQ has already. Even if my canned response was used in the FAQ... someone is not going to get it and it would still need to be reworded in yet another way. People just get confused by the subject no matter what is said... and others will just jump to conclusions as you have here without any reason to base it on at all.

            While we are repetitive in our responses... not responding to the user would be also showing of a lack of concern about the issue, which is not what we want to portray.

            You also mentioned that there may be too much info in the FAQ etc... I certainly don't agree... the subject is simply to complex to explain it with a simple statement that the project is virus/malware free and just leave it at that alone. While many users of the project are experienced enough to know the about the subject, there are many more that are not and it is for the others with less experience that the additional info is needed.

            Point in fact on that subject... Rogue antispyware/antimalware/system utility or a spyware infected program... if you visit any of their websites will only state "up one side and down the other", that they clean or you need their program but they will not provide any third party proof of it nor will they explain it in any detail. We know the project includes what is classified as riskware so we must explain what these are for and help define what is real malware so a user has an understanding of the differences.
            Plan A is always more effective when the device you are working on understands that Plan B involves either a large hammer or screwdriver....
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            #6 User is offline   SteelTrepid Icon

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              Posted 15 December 2007 - 08:16 PM

              Thanks for the good responses. I greatly resemble an "ass" in real life but try to portray a more professional attitude here in the forum. As the person who started all of this I need to resemble a "leader" even though I might not be the best or smartest leader. I some how have fooled a few people (rdsok, Joshua, hilander, pcuser, etc.) and feel I have pulled together a pretty good development team. We have good beta testers, a lot of great long time users, and then other very helpful people that take their time to help users and us.

              I really do not want this to be long winded because that is just a waste of time. I know a lot of you feel our pain at times because you frequent the forum enough to see what happens here day in and day out. Not that it's horrible here or anything, just how users can sometimes be.

              To be honest my biggest frustration with the project is the lack of help from others. In the first few years of the project I was extremely lucky to get so much help from people that wanted to help us help other people. Those early years brought several different moderators, many different beta testers, and a great development team. People have come along and created videos, created the List of Tools CHM file, our graphics, and a few other things. The sad part and really the root of my frustration is LIFE. People get a new job, start a family, graduate from school or college, and things just change. We've lost a lot of great people over the years and it was nice that we could count on their help for a while. When we lose them then things get messed up. Either I am not able/capable of editing their work or I just do not have the time to keep up with it. Most of the time it is just a lack of time for me to do it. Lately we have been very busy at work and by the end of the day I am just drained. Working on and fixing computers all day takes a lot out of you mentally and when I get home all I can do is a few things around the house and just want to go to bed.

              So basically and in all honesty if you want to help, that would be awesome. If you have the time to help us out I would greatly appreciate it. Just please do me a favor and communicate what you want to do to me prior to doing it. A lot of times people will want to help us and they'll spend 2-3 hours (or more) creating something and then send it my way. Only to find later that it's something that we've already done and they hadn't seen it or found it yet. I feel like crap whenever I have to break news like that to someone that is trying to help us. Send me an email or PM and thank you.
              "I play Russian roulette everyday, a man's sport, with a bullet called life"

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              #7 User is offline   steje Icon

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                Posted 15 December 2007 - 10:50 PM

                rdsok said:

                People just get confused by the subject no matter what is said... and others will just jump to conclusions as you have here without any reason to base it on at all.

                I had a whole other response typed up when Opera crashed on me... grrr. I'm not interested in typing all that again, and I don't think we'll see eye to eye on much of it anyway. I don't think I've jumped to ANY conlcusions whatsoever, other than expressing opinions based on the only reasoning that matters to anyone... personal experience.

                rdsok said:

                You also mentioned that there may be too much info in the FAQ etc... I certainly don't agree... the subject is simply to complex to explain it with a simple statement that the project is virus/malware free and just leave it at that alone. While many users of the project are experienced enough to know the about the subject, there are many more that are not and it is for the others with less experience that the additional info is needed.

                I didn't just say that there was too much info in the FAQ and leave it at that... I said that I thought the amount of info might be lessening the impact of what I think the most important piece of info SHOULD be... that the project is safe and free from malware. The FAQ goes on to address multiple 'angles' of what alot of the false negative thing is all about (which I acknowledged is all 'great stuff')... and is the sort of stuff I would otherwise break out into separate sticky topics posted in this sub-forum. Towards the purpose of simply having a statement out there that the project is safe, it's really NOT a very complex issue. Sometimes LESS is MORE...

                If the FAQ is properly crafted, there should never be much more explanation to a post about a file detection issue other than... 'Please review the FAQ on false positives, and then let us know if you have any other questions'. And if you find there ARE subsequent questions that aren't based on foolishness or ignorance, then revise the FAQ to cover those cases as well.

                In honesty, I don't feel the need to 'win you over' to thinking my suggestion has any value over what you're already doing. But when all I've done is suggest an 'opinion' that I think you might have better luck trying a different way, I'm sure not going to accept being slapped with a bunch of backlash. There seem to be different opinions amongst some of you regulars about just what is supposed to be getting achieved by this subsection of the forum... good luck with it. I'll look on at things like 200 page sysanalyzer reports and pleading requests to look at the FAQ, followed by replies like "I read the FAQ, didn't your read my question" with amusement instead of empathy...

                :surrender:
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                #8 User is offline   rdsok Icon

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                  Posted 15 December 2007 - 11:34 PM

                  View Poststeje, on Dec 15 2007, 09:50 PM, said:

                  I had a whole other response typed up when Opera crashed on me... grrr. I'm not interested in typing all that again


                  I hate it when that happens... and concidering that a lot of what we are discussing is opinion based anyway.. I certainly understand not retyping it also.

                  View Poststeje, on Dec 15 2007, 09:50 PM, said:

                  I don't think I've jumped to ANY conlcusions whatsoever


                  But you did in reguard to what I post as a "canned" message vs what is posted in the FAQ concerning falses etc. As I said, I was more trying to summerize the info so the user knew what was going on and could even check for themselves the truth to the statements of it being a false or a riskware issue. Besides, I did help write a lot of the info that ended up in the FAQ... so for those parts they should be similar ( many others also contributed, I wasn't the only one )

                  View Poststeje, on Dec 15 2007, 09:50 PM, said:

                  I didn't just say that there was too much info in the FAQ and leave it at that... I said that I thought the amount of info might be lessening the impact of what I think the most important piece of info SHOULD be... that the project is safe and free from malware. ... NOT a very complex issue. Sometimes LESS is MORE...


                  Perhaps I did misunderstand your meaning on that first part... but the last part I do disagree with since I feel that explaining malware is also important and therefore complex.

                  View Poststeje, on Dec 15 2007, 09:50 PM, said:

                  If the FAQ is properly crafted, there should never be much more explanation to a post about a file detection issue other than...


                  Again a disagreement I guess... From my experience I've seen the same info provided to different people and some get it and some just do not... and it isn't based on the persons intellegence at all..
                  Plan A is always more effective when the device you are working on understands that Plan B involves either a large hammer or screwdriver....
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                  #9 User is offline   hilander999 Icon

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                    Posted 15 December 2007 - 11:47 PM

                    @steje
                    You can forget trying to reason with Randy about antivirus since he is a long standing mod at the AVG FREE forums he is very biased on the subject and that is fine but you must remember that his writings have good information in them but are the result of "HIS OPINION" on the matter and all of us here realise that the main site needs a little attention and the FAQ would be a great place to start.

                    The FAQ, started out as about 15 lines and has grown to an outrageous amount of information that no one will ever read unless they are pointed directly to a certain portion of it and even then, users in general do not like to read anything. (This is my opinion.)

                    I fyou have the time and the skill to "CRAFT" a better FAQ section, then by all means you are certainly welcomed to do so because we really do need all the help we can get and non of us really have the time to work on the site when the project itself is a full time job and we all already have full time jobs.


                    Randy is a great asset to this forum and has conciderable knowledg on the subject at hand but I think there is some miss understanding on what you were trying to say that needs to be taken in account at this point.

                    FACT:
                    -The FAQ needs work.
                    -We do not have the time to address it
                    -We need help in areas like this
                    -We all have opinions that will be heard, weither anyone likes them is another story... :rolleyes:

                    IF YOU ARE WILLING TO PRESENT A BETTER LAYOUT FOR THE FAQ WE WILL BE GREATFULL TO ACCEPT IT.
                    Please understand that anything you do you will get credit for (if wanted of course) but also dont expect a direct copy/paste if we feel something needs a little tweak in the wording or how something is addressed.

                    My first post here was SHORT AND TO THE POINT.... :worthy:and was nothing more then the only way I could express the "Greatfull" feeling and be honest that help is something we really need in this area.


                    :clapping:
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                    #10 User is offline   steje Icon

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                      Posted 17 December 2007 - 07:57 PM

                      Didn't storm off resentful at anyone or anything... just processing in between other work :blush:

                      Plus... rdsok is a crafty one, need to be careful about bullet points with this dude - lol.

                      This post has been edited by steje: 17 December 2007 - 07:58 PM

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